Maybe it’s me. It must be me because I seem to be the only guy that scratches his head watching this video. After all, I’m just a guy trying make a few shekels training dogs but this video gets rave reviews all over the internet so I am probably missing something. Here are just a few of the positive comments:
“Steve White discussing use of punishment in a very even headed and scientific way using examples of police k9 dogs. the critique of each video is excellent.”
“An excellent and honest piece on the understanding of the pitfalls of punishment by itself if used poorly or incorrectly, and a reminder that if you use it to stop something, you’ve got to replace the behavior you stop.”
“Great video on the pitfalls of punishment based training, why it goes wrong, how the rules of punishment based training are violated creating behavior problems and escalating punishment, how humans learn to love using punishment because it is so reinforcing. All this from a trainer who is 90% positive but admits that there are times when he will still use punishment and works in a field where punishment is the norm – protection.”
“I like it because he doesn’t mince words… he is direct and has good examples. wish i have the full lecture… guess i will have to order it from tawzer.”
So I’ll be the first to say that maybe I’m missing something. Maybe I don’t understand the principles of behavior and my comments should be struck from the internet. And I really am the last guy that wants to get into the whole ongoing, never ending dog training argument about using negative consequences. But the “all positive” crowd is constantly shouting from the rooftops that only positive reinforcement can be used to train dogs which is causing a LOT of confusion and dogs are dying because it. So what the hell, here is what I think.
Punishment is so misunderstood and pointed to as the absolute wrong course of action when training because of videos like the one above.
The first question I asked as I was watching this video is WHY? Why are we talking about using Positive Punishment in this video? The title of his slide show is, “Should you correct aggression?” My first question was WHY is Steve using this video as an example? Why is Positive Punishment being used on a dog that has been trained to bite and release the sleeve?
This dog was trained to bite before the video (past), the dog is encouraged to bite (present) and the trainers want the dog to bite again (future). So WHY the HELL are we talking about and using Positive Punishment to “correct” aggression on this dog? In operant conditioning, punishment is used to shape behavior and the term is specifically used to mean applying a consequence that REDUCES a targeted behavior.
Everyone loves to trot out the term “scientific training methods” but not a single person in the video questioned any of this. This video is all over the internet and Facebook with tons of people talking about how it is a great example of the ineffectiveness of using punishment to stop aggression. Let me clearly state that Steve seems like a nice guy and I have even seen him speak live at APDT events in the past and I agree, he is a very good speaker, but I am really confused why he used this clip as an example on aggression and punishment.
If we truly want to talk “scientific training,” we have to discuss the four behavior quadrants: Positive Reinforcement, Negative Reinforcement, Positive Punishment and Negative Punishment. In the most basic terms, two of the quadrants: Positive Reinforcement and Negative Reinforcement can be used to reinforce behavior (get the behavior to occur more frequently) and the other two quadrants: Positive Punishment and Negative Punishment can be used to reduce behavior (get the behavior to occur less frequently and to stop altogether).
Let me repeat that: Positive Punishment is used when you want to STOP a behavior. This dog is trained for protection and has been encouraged and trained to bite and then release the sleeve on command. This video shows that the dog is confused about the “release” part. It should NOT be used as an example of “correcting” aggression. This is what is so mind boggling to me as I watch this video.
The correct course of action to get a better release on command would be to use either Positive or Negative Reinforcement because you want the get more of that behavior (those are the correct two behavior quadrants to be working from).
When I play tug, I get the dog to release on command by locking up and not moving. There is no give and playing stops until the dog releases. The second the dog releases, I immediately start playing tug again. I use the Positive Reinforcement quadrant by rewarding for releasing (gets to play tug again) in an effort to get more of the desired behavior (releasing on command). The other option available to me would be Negative Reinforcement. I could apply some type of negative stimulation until the dog performed the desired behavior – release. Once the release occurred, the negative stimulation would end.
The fact that Steve uses this video as an example of aggression and the use of Positive Punishment is what is wrong with training today – It creates confusion over the correct use of the behavior quadrants. This video is pointed to by the “all positive” crowd but it is a terrible example because it is the absolute wrong technique to use in this training situation unless you never want the dog to bite the sleeve again. In fact, we shouldn’t even be talking about aggression in this video because this dog is NOT EVEN BEING AGGRESSIVE!!!
More on that in one moment.
A better example of using punishment would have been with jumping, chewing or stealing food off the counters or a dog that is truly being aggressive. The dog in the video gets a harsh correction on a prong collar to release the bite sleeve. If I was there, I would have informed the trainers that the dog is confused and we need to help this dog understand and LEARN the release command. I would NOT keep applying prong collar corrections trying to suppress the very behavior we are encouraging. Is this becoming clear to you why I am so confused about this video?.
But here’s the biggest problem with this video. It is showing a dog that IS NOT EVEN BEING AGGRESSIVE!!!
Yes, you read that correctly. This dog is in prey drive, not defense drive, which is the drive where you would see aggression. He is playing a big game of tug-o-war. If you have no experience with bite work, biting the sleeve seems like aggression but it is no different than playing a good game of tug. Would you consider your dog to be aggressive when chasing a ball or Frisbee? Listen to the dog’s bark and pay attention to his body language. The bark is high pitched and the dog’s tail is up and wagging. A dog that is truly being aggressive acts much differently.
Again, I would never harp about any of this if it wasn’t being used to push a certain agenda which is the only reason I can think of for this video being promoted as good dog training. The purpose of this entire talk that Steve is giving is to make the case that punishment should never be used to train dogs. Instead of an open and honest discussion about the correct use of Positive Punishment, this talk was given to convince and reinforce a flawed ideology.
Onward…
In the video, Steve talks about the violation of the eight rules for punishment. He also starts to make incredibly inaccurate statements. Here are the four main parts of the video that made me wonder if I was on some secret game show with a hidden camera recording my face as I watched this:
1. Dog doesn’t know why it was being corrected is Steve’s first comment. Why was the dog being corrected? Because it wasn’t releasing on command? If that’s the case, then Positive Punishment should NOT have been used in this situation. This is a dog trained for protection, we want the dog to bite and release again and again on command. WHY use Positive Punishment (which will decrease the behavior) unless we never want the dog to bite (or release for the matter) again?
2. At 2:03 into the video Steve states: “It must (punishment) suppress the behavior.” This is the most insane part of the talk. Must suppress behavior? Again, WHY are you trying to suppress the very behaviors that have been taught (bite and then release the sleeve)? The dog is TRAINED to do the very behavior you are now trying to suppress through punishment.
Why are you talking about suppression on a dog that is trained and encouraged to bite? What we want is a learned behavior – release. Release is NOT taught through Positive Punishment. It is taught through Positive or Negative Reinforcement.
3. At 2:28 into the video Steve talks about “punishment callous” and goes on to state:
“The more you use it (punishment) the more you wind up having to use it because as the dog becomes accustomed to that then the next round has to be higher and harder and maybe you have to use it more often.”
WHAT? He then adds:
“Here’s the other problem, the more you use it (punishment) the more you want to use it because punishment is reinforcing to the punisher. Why? It makes the annoying thing stop.”
I don’t even know where to begin with this. Any trainer worth his salt that uses punishment will not continue to punish a dog if it is NOT working.
Tens of thousands of dogs in this country are safely contained to their yards through the use of electronic collars. The dog does not receive a correction everyday. Most dogs receive three, maybe four corrections in their entire life and safely stay behind the boundary.
If there was a positive method that safely kept dogs in the yard the inventor would be a billionaire because MOST trainers would recommend and use it instead of the electronic collar. But here’s the deal Sparky, you CAN’T use positive reinforcement to safely keep the dog in the yard. There is no way to reinforce a behavior that needs to be stopped.
To be contained to the yard, the dog must learn that crossing a boundary has negative consequences. They cross the line and the negative consequence is applied. There is no way to use Positive Reinforcement to STOP the behavior from occurring. You can reinforce and reward the dog all day long for months for staying in the yard but this will not result in keeping the dog in the yard when a squirrel runs across the street.
And according to Steve, if we use punishment to save the dog’s life and keep him in the yard we will become addicted to it and start using it more. I can see the “all positive” crowd jump for joy when he made that comment. Please, just think about that for a moment.
I have never taken on a new client and evilly rubbed my hands together and thought: “Oh boy, a new dog to punish. Using all this punishment is like crack, it just makes me want to do it more and now I have a new subject to use it on, hahahaaha!”
The idea of using punishment because it is reinforcing to me (the punisher) is beyond insane. It is totally ridiculous. 98% of the training that I do with a dog is positive. I use verbal markers, (I would use clickers if I didn’t lose or forget them all the time) and always spend the first few sessions talking about rewards and shaping behaviors.
I am really at a loss as to why Steve is saying this, other than as something all the positive trainers can reference and use to point to anyone that uses negative consequences as a crack addicted punishment junkie. If you don’t believe me go back and read the full comment above. It is from Facebook and the writer states: “How humans learn to love using punishment because it is so reinforcing.”
I DON’T love using punishment but I do LOVE the results punishment can give me in a training situation because I LOVE dogs and know that it (punishment) can save a dog’s life in certain situations. (Oh boy, I can see this statement being distorted and not quoted correctly.)
Next….
4. “It must be associated with the behavior not you,” Again, why are we using this dog in the video as an example? Steve then talks about how the dog starts to dance around and growl. The handler of the dog should be able to say, “Out” or “Release,” and the dog should let go.
The dog is dancing around because he knows what is coming next. That is not the first time the dog has received a prong collar correction and he is trying to avoid it BECAUSE HE SHOULD NOT BE GETTING THIS TYPE OF CORRECTION TO RELEASE.
So why is punishment being used or even talked about if it is not to be associated with the person? He says that this is the hardest of his eight rules to using punishment. Again, if we are truly talking about punishment, why the hell is he using this video clip as an example? How the heck is the dog going to release without the handler giving the command?
I would also go on to say that there are times that I want the dog to associate the punishment with me. One of my most popular videos on YouTube clearly associates the punishment with me because the dog is jumping. Other times when I say, “NO,” I want the dog to respond to my verbal command so that I can possibly save the dog’s life as in trying to bolt out the front door.
Maybe if we all understood and agreed on the proper use of rewards and punishments we could stop the insane arguments and start helping dogs. Punishment, used correctly, is not mean, harsh or abusive and I know that there will be arguments about the “fallout” and negative effects of using punishment. I think Steve is popular for saying, “Punishment is like a nuclear bomb. If the blast doesn’t get you the fallout will.” Makes for a clever saying but maybe, just maybe, we need to stop talking about how terrible punishment is and start learning how to use and apply it correctly to help save more dog’s lives.
So many from the “all positive” crowd love to tell everyone about the horrors of punishment but have no first-hand knowledge of them because they’ve never used it and now preach about how dog training should be accomplished with Victoria Stilwell strongly pushing the “positive only” training ideology.
Good for TV I guess but I wish she was with me yesterday when I was working with a recently adopted shelter dog that has a fascination for chasing cars. A fascination that has almost gotten him killed and if not brought quickly under control, probably would kill the dog or seriously injure the owner. I would argue that this dog is now predictable and can walk past cars without becoming dangerous and uncontrollable. It brought more than relief to the owner who was NOT angry with her dog. She is not now addicted to using punishment. She didn’t ask if we could keep doling out more punishment.
Used correctly, punishment can and does save dogs lives everyday but unfortunately, there is a HUGE emotional movement to stop the use of any form of punishment and point fingers at anyone that does use it. Even worse, there can be no discussion.
This article will flatly be rejected by so many dog trainers because we are talking about a subject that can’t and won’t be discussed rationally. It can only be brought up to talk about how terrible it is.
Need proof? Watch the video above again. I say emotional because emotionally, I don’t want or like to use punishment. I would prefer rewarding behaviors but logically and from experience, every trainer’s toolbox has to include negative consequences or they are doing a disservice to the clients that hire them.
The arguments against my article will be based on emotion because it is difficult, if not impossible to change a belief. Facts are no where near as strong as a belief. A belief will override a fact every time. Napoleon Hill stated long ago that the most difficult thing for a person is “Accurate thinking” because it requires us to put our emotions on the back burner and think logically.
We learn to live and think emotionally and I understand when it comes to dogs. Dogs are a highly emotional topic with dog trainers, as they should be. But when it comes to truly understanding and helping and training dogs, we need to think about the way things really are instead of the way we wish they were. I wish we could train using only positive methods. I should know. I tried it for years and as much as I wish it was effective in every situation, in stopping every problem that my clients faced, achieved all the results that my clients desired, it really is just a pipe dream and to continue pushing that agenda needs to stop.
And I am very serious about dogs dying because of this “all positive” agenda. A while back I was teaching obedience classes at a shelter. One night the shelter employees decided to record one of my classes. They recorded me working with a dog that was on his way to the shelter. This dog had broken the owner’s rib and given her eight stitches. She had already been to two other trainers that were “all positive” with no changes in her dog’s behavior. I showed her how to effectively apply a negative consequence to STOP his out of control behavior that was physically hurting her and others.
The recording was shown to the shelter manager. The shelter manager and staff went nuts when they saw the video. The shelter manager said: “I thought you were a positive trainer. I can’t believe what I saw on that video. That can NEVER happen again here at this shelter.” I never claimed to be an “all positive” trainer but they assumed I was because the OVERWHELMING majority of the training I do is positive.
I did not use a choke, prong or electronic collar on this dog. I continued to work with the owner and dog privately outside of the shelter class and the dog still lives in the house and the owner is extremely happy with the results. When I explained this to the shelter manager she said she did not care and that ONLY positive methods could be used. I explained to the manager that if the behaviors didn’t stop, the dog would have been surrendered to the shelter and probably been put to sleep because it had a bite history if it had not been for using a negative consequence.
Didn’t matter.
Which is why I wrote this article. Personally, I hate the whole argument over training methods but when a respected and influential trainer like Steve White is giving seminars that clearly confuses the issue and insinuate that I am addicted to using punishment, I have a hard time sitting on the sidelines keeping quiet.
Peace,
Eric
Dear Eric,
I’ve read your blog with great pleasure. There is no ‘All positive’ way. We need to combine the things we know about learning and apply these to the dog. Not every dog is the same, and every dog needs their own treatment.
There is a big rift between the two sides (All positive and old-school trainers(like i call them)) that is getting bigger and bigger. No one wants to talk to each other because of, like you said, the emotions involved.
There is no all positive way to change because there will always be a point where the all positive trainer will use a correction/punishment. My example always is a sit-stay command. When the dogs breaks it the handler will say ‘sit’. We are then punishing the dog for getting up, untill he sits again. So yes, positive trainers will use punishment but they don’t like to call it that way, for a strange reason.
Let try to train our dogs as positive as it can be, but don’t forget that we also use punishment in positive training.
Regards,
Hondsdomheid
Bravo Eric, your post is well written and intelligent. I can tell you put a lot of thought into it. I am also a 95% positive trainer who loves dogs and wouldn’t do anything to hurt one. That being said there are certain behaviors like the ones you talked about in your post that can’t be influenced by throwing scooby snacks at it. This dangerous trend toward all positive dog training and never using punishment regardless of if it is positive or negative is as I believe, a reflection of a more permissive nature and direction society in general is headed in. In most schools, especially in the lower grades, there is no longer such a thing as winners and losers. Everyone wins, everyone gets a trophy just for showing up. There is no real incentive to do better, so what are we really teaching our kids,..it’s the same as telling little Johnny that it’s o.k. if you don’t try harder to win, you are going to get a reward anyway,..and getting back to our dogs, if a dog is doing something that could possibly end with him getting hurt, or be the cause of a human getting injured, then you MUST provide the dog with a strong enough incentive not to do it again, and the all positive dog training methodology provides no incentive for the dog to stop, therefore the behavior continues unabated and may even get worse. You have provided an important service here Eric, we can’t allow common sense to be taken out of modern dog training. Thank you for taking a stand.
I agree with you 100%!
Personal protection training is specific and specialized. And while I don’t think the “trainer” in the video was doing a good job, there was no aggression being displayed by the dog in that video.
I think this points out that people good at training dogs are not always good at communicating with people. You, Eric, have that special dual talent!
He seems to think people who use “punishment” do not use any other training technique. Yeah, if you only say “no”, you will have to say it more and more often. If you say “Yes” often (i.e. positive reinforcement), the times you need to use “no” will be reduced (and therefore gain power, by being used so rarely).
And, punishment is addictive to the punisher??? Whoa. I’ve never heard that one. That’s a mentally unbalanced person who becomes addicted to giving out punishments. Yikes!
Eric,
I’ve been receiving your daily e-mails for awhile and enjoy them immensely. There is a difference between punishment and abuse. Even though I know that,I am afraid to use any type of punishment when I am out walking or training my Chihuahuas. People are so ready to assume that because my dogs may get a punishment or correction that I am abusing them. All I really want is my dogs to be well-behaved and good citizens.
My dogs are my joy and I want them to be my pride. I wasn’t raised in a no punishment and no consequence home and I am not raising my dogs in one. They receive rewards when they do something correctly,a treat or an enthusiastic “yes” ,just like I did. If they don’t act in an appropriate manner,they get no reward or a correction,same as me. Depending on how bad the infraction they get a puishment just like I did. I learned that if I did the right thing good things happen. On the other hand,I learned that when I went against my parent’s wishes,no good things happended. Why should my dogs be any different? They shouldn’t.
I’ve been interested in training dogs for a very long time. I remember the training methods of the old days when it was considered acceptable to be ” heavy-handed ” training dogs. It was OK to force or bully your dog,not unlike how children used to be raised. Times changed and training methods have too for better. There was a saying in the ’80s,” I want to be like Mike “. My expression for the 2010s is, ” I want to be like ‘ The Amazing Dog Training Man ‘ “.
Thank you and keep up the great work,
Richard
Hi Richard, I learned a long time ago that most people raise their dogs in the same fashion that they were raised as children.Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes it is the very reason they are having trouble with their out of control dogs. As a dog trainer, I have found that getting people to understand this, and make changes to the way they think about their dogs behavior is one of the most challenging parts of my job.
Pingback: The Two Most Important Words Your Dog Has To Learn | Eric Letendre | The Amazing Dog Training Man
Dear Eric,
thank you for the honest truth.
We have exactly the same problems in the horse training world. Mainly because the high profile trainers don’t show what goes on behind closed doors.
The truth is not always popular. Thanks again for having the courage to speak the truth.
Thanks Janette. Once I saw how it was actually contributing to more dogs being euthanized is when I decided to step up and start writing about it. Thanks for your comment.
Pingback: Backlash From Yesterday's Email | Eric Letendre | The Amazing Dog Training Man
Thank you Eric. I truly appreciate this article. Years ago, we adopted a Border Collie. He was a lovely dog, but when we moved to the country, he became a fence jumper and, unfortunately began killing cats. He never even nipped at our cat, but if they were outside… Anyway, we tried everything we could think of (I went for the all positive training at this point because another dog I’d had in the past became aggressive after some “old-school” training). Nothing worked. We even called the rescue group for help and were basically told it was a behavior that, once learned was virtually impossible to change. The short of it, we wound up turning him back to the rescue group, which saddens us to this day. A couple of years ago, we adopted a lab mix, also a wonderful dog…who is also a fence jumper. Fortunately he appears to be an explorer rather than a cat killer, but that doesn’t make me happy. I was feeling guilty because we bought an e-collar…something I never wanted to do, but if will help keep him from getting hit, poisoned or attacked, it will be well worth it. My problem is how to use it effectively to deter the habit without misusing it. Anyway, thank you for removing some of my guilty feelings.
Thank you for your thoughtful and learned critique, Eric. It can be difficult for “lay” people to sort out the trees from the woods with some of the videos on the internet. Your experience and approaches to dog training make you invaluable. Your love of dogs and your profession shines through. Please keep up your great work.
I still think, that ´only positive´training can work..but you must be able to control dog´s reinforcement and work hard on foundation skills. And you must be master in it. There are lot´s of trainers use only positive methods and it works. I don´t tell that punishment don´t work..when you know how to use it it can work brilliant..but people who train only positive love their dogs in other way..they want see, that their dogs make good choices, because THEY want, not owner. Everytime. That´s it. 🙂
I’ve been in the dog training game a long time. Have worked with and seen a lot of dogs. The overwhelming majority of dogs will ignore a treat when they see a squirrel, person, dog or distraction. A treat will not stop a behavior. A treat will not keep a dog in the yard as another dog walks past. A treat won’t stop a dog from stealing food off the table. Positive reinforcement is great. Positive reinforcement is the way you teach a behavior. But positive reinforcement has its limitations and there is nothing wrong with that. Training is using the correct technique form the correct behavior quadrant at the correct time.
Why do you think that ´´positive´´ trainers use treat always ? They use what is best reinforcement for dog – it can be treat, toy, activity, enviroment. When you want stop behavior you must stop reinforcement. When you want dog who will ignore squirel you must work on attention and selfcontrol at first. You can´t ask your dog if you didn´t train before. It is distraction, you should make it at first easy and gradually bring distractions to training sessions. It is like you want from children make test from high school algebra on 100percent, but you don´t learn that children 2+2… learn your dog impulse control, learn him that you are person who can give him access to reinforcement and that you can give your dog more fun than enviroment. Your dog everytime looking for reinforcement – if you are not person who have access to it, your dog will looking for it in enviroment..And if there is some unwanted behavior – simply teach dog what you want from him to do. There are MAAAANYYYY ways to find solution without punishment.
Positive reinforcement has limitation only if you don´t want search new ways to train your dog.